Tariq Ramadan

02/09/2006 03:20 PM
INTERVIEW WITH MUSLIM LEADER TARIQ RAMADAN ON THE CARICATURE CONFLICT
"We Have to Turn Up the Volume of Reason"

With unrelenting Muslim anger over the Muhammad caricatures, sentiments between Islam and the West once again have all the delicacy of a powder keg. SPIEGEL ONLINE spoke with Tariq Ramadan, Europe's leading Muslim scholar, about the overreaction of the Muslim world, rampant anti-Semitism and the frustrations of Muslim immigrants in Europe.
Egyptian-Swiss philosopher and Islamic theoretician Tariq Ramadan.
AP

Egyptian-Swiss philosopher and Islamic theoretician Tariq Ramadan.
SPIEGEL ONLINE:

The Muslim world's reactions to the publishing of the Muhammad caricatures first in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten and then in other European publications have not done much to improve the image of Islam in the West. Are Muslims overreacting?

Tariq Ramadan: Of course. The reaction has been way too severe. I traveled to Denmark back in October and I told Muslim leaders there not to react emotionally, because it would be the reactions and the emotions of the Muslims that would become the center of attention. The best thing would have been for us to take an emotional distance. But now, all you see is angry faces, crying and rage on the television. This is not the way forward for the Muslims.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But clearly there are deeper reasons for this enormous outburst of emotions than just a handful of offensive cartoons. It's as though huge amounts of pent up frustration are finally being released. Is there something larger going on here?

Ramadan: Of course it started with a few people being hurt by the cartoons. But then a few people took the cartoons to the Middle East. Some governments there were very happy to present themselves as the great champions of Islam. One reason, of course, was to gain legitimacy in the eyes of their own people. But secondly, it was to direct the attention of the people, living under these dictatorial governments, toward the West and to provide their people with a vent for their own frustrations. And it worked -- it became Muslims against the West. All the first reactions from the Islamic majority countries came from those countries (and places) where there is a difficult relationship with the West: Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Gaza, and then Iran. It's more than just the cartoons. It's part of a broader picture that we have to keep in mind.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Where does this intense resentment against the West come from?

Ramadan: There are a number of countries, like Syria or Iran, in the Islamic world which are under tremendous pressure from the West. The governments present themselves as victims and turn their people against the West. In Gaza, to take another example, there is a perception that the West is speaking about democracy, but when the votes are tallied, it considers the result unacceptable. There is also a perception that Israel is supported to the disadvantage of the Palestinians. So there are many things that add up and the result is a perception that the war on terror isn't only against terror but it is also against Muslims. The cartoon showing the Prophet's turban as a bomb didn't help.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: None of this is terribly new. After all, burning American flags in the Middle East has become something of a tradition. But Muslims living in Europe also talk about an anti-Islam prejudice.

Ramadan: If you're living in Europe as a Muslim, it's in the atmosphere. There is the presence of far-right parties and their discourse -- even though such parties don't have much support. But even mainstream political parties have accepted and propagated a discourse which is perceived by Muslims to be a continuous and permanent attack.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: There are also plenty of people and political parties preaching tolerance and doing their best to help Muslims in Europe. Why focus on the negatives?

Ramadan: I have long been saying that we Muslims have to get rid of this victim mentality. But it's there. And it's hard to ignore the Islamophobia or racism that is present. Many allow themselves to be hurt and their emotional reaction spins out of control. Muslim leaders in Europe have a responsibility to help shape the response of the Muslims to the West and of the West to Islam. We have to somehow take the emotion out of the response.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How is that possible when the Muslim world and some radical Muslim leaders here in Europe are constantly saying that the West is the source of all evil?

Ramadan: The great majority of Muslims in Europe feel they are Europeans. They may face troubles sometimes and may face negative perceptions, but the great majority of Muslims in Europe are demonstrating that they are citizens of Europe and want to change the image of Islam. We have to pay more attention to these people than to the vocal radicals on the margins who think that Europeans will never accept Muslims.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But there are many who listen to these radical voices on the fringes.

Ramadan: But there are many who don't. The media should speak about these Muslims who are trying to become active and committed European citizens and who are accepting European culture. They need to be helped. Media pressure is undermining our work and we are regressing. Every six months you have some new event which ratchets up the pressure and focuses the attention on emotions, reactions and on Muslims committing violence. The latest event just happens to be the Muhammad caricatures. But these events really undermine the process of reform, the process of settling down and the process of dialogue. Today, there is no dialogue, there is no debate. It's a power struggle and it's very, very vicious.

Part II: "In a Clash of Civilizations, We Both Lose"

Disgruntled Muslim protesters gathered in central Copenhagen last Saturday.
AP

Disgruntled Muslim protesters gathered in central Copenhagen last Saturday.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Which of course proves the point the radicals are trying to make -- namely that Islam and the West are incompatible.

Ramadan: Exactly. On the positive side, what we Muslims experience in Europe will have a tremendous impact on Islamic majority countries. We now have experience with living in democracy and living in free societies. But there is a danger. If Muslims and Europeans, as equal citizens living together in a democracy, are not able to trust each other, if we are not able to talk to each other, if we are not able to come to a reasonable agreement about how to live together, we are sending a signal to Islamic majority countries that there is no way for Muslims and Westerners to trust each other. We in Europe have a great, great, great responsibility. It's important that European citizens understand that if mutual knowledge and mutual respect are improved, then we are sending the signal that it is possible. Right now, though, we are sending exactly the opposite message.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Not to be overly pessimistic, but that sounds like a pretty tall order.

Ramadan: It has to happen at the local level. It's up to each and every citizen to choose if they are ready to know more about their fellow citizens and the Muslims living around them. There is a lot of mistrust between the two groups. People need to break out of their intellectual ghettos, break out of their religious and cultural ghettos and come to some common, universal values. And these values do exist. We can't just wait for the next crisis and then react. This needs to be a pre-emptive strategy based on a true understanding of what pluralism requires.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Outside of Europe, the Muslim world doesn't seem to have understood that Europe and the West really is committed to freedom of the press, freedom of opinion and other democratic values.

Ramadan: That's true. Many in the Muslim world think that European governments are responsible for the caricatures. They don't realize that it doesn't work like that. These people are living under regimes where the president controls both the government and the media. But that's not the only misconception of the West. There is a perception in the Muslim world that the West is a lost civilization with no moral standards and no ethics. But this is, of course, wrong. It's important that the Muslims living in Europe tell them that even in the West, there wasn't just one single response to the caricatures. Many Europeans and Westerners are arguing that the West has to be wise in the way it exercises its freedom of expression.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: So you're saying that a lot of people in the Muslim world don't understand that there is a debate going on?

Ramadan: The same thing works in reverse. In the West, when you look at the violent reactions in the Muslim world, you have the perception that these are the Muslims. But that's not right either. There are different trends in the Islamic world as there are here. Because the radical voices are loudest and are covered more by the media, they have the upper hand. We have to turn up the volume of reason and ensure that our discourse gets the upper hand.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What different trends do you see emerging in the Islamic world?

Ramadan: There is a power struggle going on. The Muslim world is afraid of being self-critical because they feel that plays into the hands of the other side -- the West. If you ask too many critical questions, you are perceived as having switched sides and become a Westerner in Muslim dress. There is a perception that whereas yesterday it was political colonization from the West, today it is economic colonization and cultural imperialism. But you can't forget that the great majority of the Arab-Islamic countries are not democracies. Many people in Europe ask about the rights of Christians in Saudi Arabia, for example. What about the rights of Saudis in Saudi Arabia? What about the people. The reality is that it is a dictatorship. That's what makes it difficult to get some movement within the Islamic majority countries. We Muslims in Europe have to speak out, but the Islamic world as a whole also has to stop blaming the West and to ask ourselves, from within, what is wrong with us. The average discourse in the Islamic majority countries is that all our problems are imposed on us. No. They are a consequence. There is no freedom, there is no political will to solve the problems.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What about the Iranian paper's idea to hold a contest to create Holocaust caricatures? Why is every perceived provocation from the West answered by anti-Semitism?

Ramadan: Muslims have to realize that double standards cannot be allowed. We are confusing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict -- a political conflict -- with all the Jews. We have to condemn something which is harmful and anti-Semitic. The Holocaust is a deep and hurtful part of the European conscience. Exploiting that, and exploiting a people who were hurt and suffered and treated in a horrific way -- which is what the Holocaust caricature campaign does -- is not acceptable. It is to be condemned.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is there a connection between the current cartoon conflict and Iran's potential quest for nuclear weapons?

Ramadan: Yes, there is. The cartoon conflict provides the Iranian government -- which postures as the defender of the Muslim world against the West -- with legitimacy. We as free citizens and democrats need to stand between the two extremist sides -- between the Iranians and those calling for war against Iran. We need to stand between the people who are prophets of a very dark tomorrow. If we end up with a clash of civilizations, we are both going to lose. If there is a dialogue of civilizations, then we are both going to win. We have to realize that whether we win or lose, we are going to do it together.

Interview conducted by Charles Hawley




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